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Old 07-16-2010, 07:39 PM   #1
marcar1993
 
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Default Hard starting when hot. (UPDATE)

Put in the new stater and it works great. No shims and it works perfect. (Hours of work though fighting with headers ).
But I still can't get the car to start when hot. It cranks really slow. With a boost is usually starts but still cranks really slow.
I am pretty sure the timing is 20* btdc with the vacuum advance plugged. Should I turn it down to 18* or so? Any other thoughts?
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Last edited by marcar1993 : 08-01-2010 at 05:04 AM.
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Old 07-16-2010, 08:04 PM   #2
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Default Re: Hard starting when hot.

Heat soak?
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Old 07-16-2010, 08:06 PM   #3
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Default Re: Hard starting when hot.

^ yes heat soak. You need a starter wrap, worked for my 67.
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Old 07-16-2010, 08:09 PM   #4
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Default Re: Hard starting when hot.

Did you use the heat shield on the starter from the 307? I did on my 350 and I dont seem to have any issues. I have headman headers and no heat soak problems.
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Old 07-16-2010, 08:21 PM   #5
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Default Re: Hard starting when hot.

What do you have for grounds?
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Old 07-16-2010, 08:28 PM   #6
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Default Re: Hard starting when hot.

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Originally Posted by 80Rocket View Post
What do you have for grounds?
Speaking of grounds, did you paint over the mounting pad for the starter? That sometimes can cause issues if it was painted over.
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Old 07-16-2010, 08:35 PM   #7
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Default Re: Hard starting when hot.

Yes, however it is now clean. I do need to replace the one ground strap (block to body) because I broke it. Otherwise all is factory intact.

I really should take that heat shield off the 307. Let me see what that does for me, and I'll still fix my ground strap.

Thanks.
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Old 07-17-2010, 01:45 AM   #8
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Default Re: Hard starting when hot.

The 307 starter heat shield won't fit a 'normal' sized starter. You'll need one from a 350/403.
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Old 07-17-2010, 06:30 AM   #9
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Default Re: Hard starting when hot.

I have a factory starter in my '78 without a heat shield. Its been in the car since the end of 2004. I also have headers.

I do have some heavy duty grounds. My battery is 2 gauge that goes to the block. I also have a 4 gauge that grounds the block to the chassis.

I have not had a problem with starting the car over the years until lately. When it gets hot, about 25% of the time it will crank a little slow, but always enough to start. This problem seemed to have come up as soon as the ground terminal on the battery seemed to be questionable.
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Old 07-17-2010, 01:07 PM   #10
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Default Re: Hard starting when hot.

I used to have this problem bad until I overhauled the battery terminals and related connections. I am certain the issue was heat soak because one of my header tubes is nearly in direct contact with the starter. That coupled with Florida summer would cause the starter to crank at what must have been 30 rpm. Cleaning up the connections made a world of difference and even though it still cranks slower on hot days it's never enough to inhibit starting within 1-2 seconds.
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Old 07-17-2010, 05:49 PM   #11
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Default Re: Hard starting when hot.

Are you using the factory 307 battery cables? If so, that is probably your problem. The 6 gauge (?) just isn't big enough to carry the current to crank the larger engine. Replace with at least 2 gauge, with a good battery and starter I bet it will crank no problem.
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Old 07-17-2010, 09:21 PM   #12
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Default Re: Hard starting when hot.

307 starter, cables, ect...
I plan to replace the cable. The stock heat shield WON'T fit. The tube is too close! It physically won't allow me to get the bolts in because of the angle it's at.

Today was my dad's bandit run and I needed the car to be running and START because I'm the camera car. So I wrapped the headers (so-so in the starter area) and it helped. It was fine with all my city driving, but the 40 mile drive, mainly highway keeping up with 20 trans ams sure got it hot. When we got to the show I tried to restart it to move the car and it was cranking so slow I just decided not to force it.
I plan to wrap the starter now.
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Old 08-01-2010, 05:06 AM   #13
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Default Re: Hard starting when hot.

I tried the starter wrap... It really didn't do much.
Still, once I go on a mile or 2 long drive it won't restart.
Will a mini starter really help? Who makes the smallest, best one? I want to only do this one more time. Actually, I'd rather not do it again ever, but if I must let me only do it once.
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Old 08-01-2010, 06:38 AM   #14
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Default Re: Hard starting when hot.

Have you checked the solenoid?
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Old 08-01-2010, 07:29 AM   #15
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Default Re: Hard starting when hot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marcar1993 View Post
I tried the starter wrap... It really didn't do much.
Still, once I go on a mile or 2 long drive it won't restart.
Will a mini starter really help? Who makes the smallest, best one? I want to only do this one more time. Actually, I'd rather not do it again ever, but if I must let me only do it once.
Could be that your current starter is already just about well done.

In any case I have always heard Powermaster is the way to go in mini starters. Just keep in mind they are pricey. Had looked into one when I had my 67 from what I recall its a good 3 times the price of a regular starter.

http://www.powermastermotorsports.com/

Of note your header sounds like it is just about touching your starter? On my 67 my mechanic massaged it away with a hammer etc, within reason of course.
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1987 442 STOCK 307 - 15.179 @ 88.58 mph


7A head VIN 9 KZF 200-4R with a 8.5 3.73 air delete. Open/no air filter. 2 1/4" true dual Flowmasters with crossover. Alloy, mags, drums, and rad, 3560 race weight. Timing 22*, 23.8 inch diameter rear tires (4.07). Hypertech S R Chip. Mobile 1


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Old 08-01-2010, 08:22 AM   #16
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Default Re: Hard starting when hot.

Did you ever replace the main ground/strap that was broken? May be an issue still. Bad grounding can cause some wonky things. I'd recommend a cable, as thick as your positive cable, right from the negative to the engine block. Make the the connections are clean too.

This may not be your issue, but just be aware that resistance climbs as temperate rises. A good thick meaty clean ground is never a bad thing....you probably already know that my car literally started on fire due to bad grounding once before.
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Old 08-01-2010, 10:13 AM   #17
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Default Re: Hard starting when hot.

Another thing you can use to protect your starter is header wrap, I wrapped up mine with header wrap and it seem to help with the heat soak issues I was getting
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Old 08-01-2010, 01:41 PM   #18
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Default Re: Hard starting when hot.

I have one of the cheap Ebay clockable mini starters. I even ground on the body so I could put it right tight to engine for a lot of clearance with the front axle of the 4x4. Had it on for over a year and works great. Much more cranking power than even a large body starter.
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Old 08-01-2010, 01:51 PM   #19
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Default Re: Hard starting when hot.

Is the solenoid on top of the motor?
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Old 08-01-2010, 09:01 PM   #20
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Default Re: Hard starting when hot.

The solenoid is on top of the starter. It is a new starter I put on and it works perfect when cold. I do still need the ground strap.
I would massage my header, but it has been massaged a lot already in other spots... And taking it off SUCKS.
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Old 08-02-2010, 12:35 PM   #21
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Default Re: Hard starting when hot.

Marcar.. i think you have the answer to your own problem..

I personally think the starter is too small
try using a bigger 403/455 starter and see what happens.. if room permits
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Old 08-02-2010, 12:43 PM   #22
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Default Re: Hard starting when hot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marcar1993 View Post
The solenoid is on top of the starter. It is a new starter I put on and it works perfect when cold. I do still need the ground strap.
I would massage my header, but it has been massaged a lot already in other spots... And taking it off SUCKS.
Pull the end cap off the solenoid, check the contact, and disk, if burned, sand it out. New does NOT mean squat.
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Old 08-02-2010, 01:02 PM   #23
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Default Re: Hard starting when hot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beeterolds View Post
Marcar.. i think you have the answer to your own problem..

I personally think the starter is too small
try using a bigger 403/455 starter and see what happens.. if room permits

this and the 350-455 ones are cheaper also.
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Old 08-02-2010, 01:45 PM   #24
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Default Re: Hard starting when hot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beeterolds View Post
Marcar.. i think you have the answer to your own problem..

I personally think the starter is too small
try using a bigger 403/455 starter and see what happens.. if room permits
I have had a 307, a 350, and a 455 starter all on my engine when I was burning them up every 6 months after I first installed the headers. I noticed no difference at all in cranking power, or speed....that is until they started to cook later....
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Old 08-02-2010, 10:21 PM   #25
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Default Re: Hard starting when hot.

I have a HD starter from my dads car (same as 403/455 starter) and it physically won't fit. The 307 starter is so tight in there it is LITERALLY 1/16"- 1/32" or so from the header at the closest point. The other starter is bigger than that buy a lot. It CANNOT fit... I tried for about 2 hours...

Maybe a mini starter would be good if for nothing else to move it away from the header. Then I'd still run all my heat shielding AND the factory heat shield if possible.
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